他们的经验值应该在两个方面呈现出来:一是在资本层面,二是在公共领域里面C_E:从1978年到2008年,你认为中国改革的主题是什么?吴晓波:最大的主题还是发展,其实就是小平那句话,“黄猫、黑猫,只要捉住老鼠就是好猫。”前30年是发展,2008年以后发现,发展也付出了很大的代价。C_E:2008年之后这几年,商业趋势最大的变化是什么?吴晓波:有几个大的变化,很多变化是我在写《激荡三十年》的时候没有预见到的,当时也还有些乐观,认为所谓的问题点后来都被转移掉了,但事实上不是这样。 Their empirical values ​​should be presented in two aspects: first, at the capital level and second, at the public sphere. C_E: From 1978 to 2008, what do you think the theme of China’s reform is? Wu Xiaobo: The biggest theme is development. In fact, Xiaoping said that “yellow cats and black cats are good catches as long as catching mice.” The first 30 years of development were development and after 2008, development was also paid a great price. C_E: What is the Biggest Change in Business Trends After 2008? Wu Xiaobo: There are a few major changes, many of which were not anticipated when I wrote “Agitation for thirty years” and were still optimistic at the time , That the so-called problem points were later removed, but in fact not the case.