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第一次采访李昌钰博士，给我留下了难以磨灭的记忆。
一
2008年4月，美籍华人、著名国际刑侦专家李昌钰博士一行来我省访问的消息，不胫而走，省有关单位和新闻媒体十分关注，纷纷向省侨办询问李昌钰博士一行来浙江访问的有关情况。我接到《文化交流》杂志总编辑的电话，约我写一篇李昌钰的专访,为《文化交流》独家供稿。尽管当时工作和接待任务繁重，但因为我与总编辑是多年朋友，也就应允下来。
现在回想起来，我那时答应采访李博士,真是有些贸然。李昌钰博士是世界著名刑事鉴识科学家,40多年来他在全球42个国家参与侦破了8000多起重大案件，被媒体誉为“当代福尔摩斯”、“物证鉴识大师”、“科学神探”,他的名字与被称为“世纪大审判”的辛普森杀妻案、克林顿性丑闻案、肯尼迪遇刺案、克林顿白宫副顾问自杀案等一件件轰动全球的惊世大案联系在一起。这样—位世界名人，我只是通过媒体了解过他,但从未见过面，他会接受我的采访吗?我心存疑虑。况且李博士在浙江访问只有四五天时间，日程安排十分紧凑,有没有时间接受我的采访我也心中无底。
4月8日上午约8时30分，李博士与夫人宋妙娟女士从上海浦东国际机场乘车到达杭州,我陪省侨办领导在高速公路杭州彭埠出口处迎候。因为有警车开道，所以车队行驶不到20分钟就到了下榻的西子宾馆。虽然旅途有些劳累，但李博士仍面带笑容，腰板挺直，很有精神。我第一次见到李博士，就感觉他是一位十分和蔼可亲的老人,说话不紧不慢，非常平易近人，一点名人的架子也没有。当天吃过中饭,我向李博士报告了来浙江访问的日程安排及接待方案后，他高兴地说，安排得十分周到，谢谢你们。尔后，我忐忑不安地对李博士说:“这次除了全程陪同您访问外，还有一个任务是想采访您，完成《文化交流》杂志的一篇专访。不知您同意吗?”李博士笑了笑回答：“可以呵，你们宣传我是件好事。你与记者不一样，全程陪同我，采访比他们时间多。我们可以抽时间多聊聊呵。”李博士一番话，不仅打消了我原有 的疑虑和胆怯,而且增添了我采访的信心和勇气。
李博士此次来浙江访问，省领导高度重视和关心, 并给予高规格的礼遇。4月10日下午，省委书记、省人大常委会主任赵洪祝亲切会见了他和夫人宋妙娟。赵洪祝书记说，李博士有“神探”之名,希望能对浙江社会治安工作多提宝贵的意见和建议，帮助我省公安干警不断提高刑侦水平。李博士表示，愿意与同行切磋交流，分享经验，为浙江省的社会治安略尽绵薄之力。会见结束时，赵书记向李博士赠送了织锦画《四季西湖》；李博士向赵书记赠送了他最近撰写出版的两本新书和美国警察茄克衣,赵书记还穿上美国警察茄克衣高兴地与李博士合影留念。会见后,时任副省长钟山宴请了李博士一行。在浙江访问的5天时间里，李博士拜访了省公安部门领导，并与公安干警进行了刑事侦查交流并演讲；到浙江警察学院、浙江工商大学讲学，并受聘名誉教授；还赴海盐等地考察，看望基层公安干警。因为李博士行程安排十分紧张，因此我的采访只能见缝插针。
二
我因有幸全程陪同李博士一行，所以早餐和坐车时是我采访的最好时机。我在采访中，听李博士讲得最多的是他用科学、独特的刑事侦察与鉴识技术侦破案件的故事。李博士向我介绍，“刑事鉴识科学”将物理、化学、医学、生物学等自然科学的原理及方法应用到刑事侦查和法庭工作上，能借助先进的科学技术找到确凿的物证,以物证证明被告有罪或无罪或不在现场，减少了人为的主观色彩，使破案结果更为准确、客观。“如果不但没有证人,而且生不见人死不见尸，这样的失踪案又如何侦破呢?”我问道。李博士向我讲述了很多案例,比如“碎木机下冤魂案”、“警察杀人案”、“百慕大美少女命案”、“神秘血手印案”等侦破故事。李博士说，现代人应该具有鉴识意识，学会用鉴识技术来保护自己。不但是刑事侦查领域，就是我们的日常生活中也会用到鉴识技术。在美国,中餐馆很多,生意也不错。有一次,有一位美国老太太投诉她吃的春卷中有猫肉、狗肉,给那家中餐馆带来了很大的麻烦,还严重影响了中国人的形象。后来经过物证鉴识，春卷用猫肉、狗肉的说法纯属子虚乌有，那家中餐馆也讨回了公道与清白。
李博士除了以他精湛的刑事侦察与鉴识技术享誉全球外，他的艰苦奋斗经历,也使我深受教育和启发。作为世界顶级的鉴识科学家，李博士一生获得了800多个荣誉奖项。2005年，他106岁高龄的母亲去世，美国现任和历任总统都发来了慰问信，称她为最伟大的母亲。出殡时，美国警车前来开道，为华人赢得无上尊荣。我问李博士；“人生成功的秘诀是什么?”他笑了笑说，人生最重要的是坚守理想,知难而上。碰到再大的困难也要想办法去克服，这样才有可能成功。1965年他初到美国时身上只有50美元，不久太太怀孕生了孩子，生活费、学费使压力更大了。他白天上课，晚上到餐馆端盘子，周末去教中国功夫。为了节省5分钱，他下班、下课后再累都走路回家。工作、学习之外，每天只能睡3至4个小时,但他并不消极,而认为这正是锻炼自己的好机会。他边看书、边看电视、边听音乐、边照顾孩子，因此训练了思维能力，乃至日后可与三个人同时谈话,还能思考案件。就这样他一步一步，以超常的毅力，以多出常人几倍心血的付出，登上事业的高峰。李博士对我说：“我年轻时穷,上不了哈佛大学；后来有了钱,他们又说我成绩不好。现在哈佛花重金来请我去演讲。”李博士还说，即使不是名牌大学毕业,只要在一个领域里刻苦钻研几十年，也可以成为顶尖人才。成功属于勤奋的人。
在短短几天与李博士夫妇接触、交往中，我发现李博士夫人宋妙娟女士十分贤惠,对李博士体贴入微。每次李博士演讲,宋妙娟女士总是坐在台下静静听着；演讲结束后,将亲手泡好的热茶端给李博士喝。我好奇地问李博士的家庭情况,他坦率地和我讲起与夫人相识、相知、相爱的爱情故事及美满幸福的家庭，还从文件包里找出了他与夫人年轻时的合影照片给我看。李博士说:“这张照片送给你吧，配你写的专访文章用。”李博士还风趣地说，这是我第一次公开家庭“隐私”呵。当时我手里拿着照片，十分激动地连声说：“谢谢!”
三
在采访李博士中，我被他那种艰苦奋斗的精神、百折不挠的毅力、至诚信义的品德和爱祖（籍）国、爱家乡的热情感动着，冲击着，激励着……让我终生难忘和心灵震撼。正是这种感动和震撼，也正是李博士的支持和鼓励，我连续4个晚上写作到凌晨两、三点钟，撰写了7000多字的专访《当代“福尔摩斯”李昌钰》，并赶在李博士一行离开浙江的前一天晚上,送交李博士审阅。4月13日早上8点左右，我到李博士房间请他吃早饭，他将亲笔修改过的稿子递给我后说:“文章写得不错。短短几天写了我一生，不容易。”李博士还把从未在报刊上发表过的6张工作照片送给我配专访文章用。在一旁的李夫人说：“李博士对采访他的文章一般不看也不修改,这是破例第一次。昨天晚上他还戴着老花眼镜认真仔细地看了一个多小时呢。”李博士能在百忙中抽出时间来亲自审阅和修改我写的文章，我感到无比幸运和激动。当天晚上，我认认真真地看了稿子，李博士亲笔修改了13处之多。比如我在写《碎木机下冤魂案》的侦破故事中，有一段原文是：“为证实尸体确实是用碎木机粉碎，李昌钰将猪的骨头和肉一起放入碎木机，其碎渣与海伦尸体碎渣形状完全一样。”后来李博士修改为:“李昌钰将全猪的骨头和肉一起放入碎木机……”加了一个“全”,虽是一字之差，却纠正了我的误写。可见李博士是多么认真和严谨。
4月15日下午，我将采访李博士的文章和照片送到《文化交流》杂志社，交给总编辑。6月上旬，《文化交流》第六期发表了《当代“福尔摩斯”李昌钰》一文。6月25日，李博士从美国特地给我打来电话说，对浙江接待十分满意，表示感谢，并问起文章有没有发表。我告诉李博士已经发表,他十分高兴地说今年10月中旬到上海能否将《文化交流》杂志当面送他。当时我因有一个重要会议抽不开身，故在10月18日那天委托浙江工商大学法学院孔院长带去5本《文化交流》杂志和一本邮票册送给李博士。
11月20日,李博士从美国发来传真,写道:“《文化交流》已收到，杂志办得很好；文章也写得很好,谢谢。”2009年4月李博士再次来访问并在浙江警察学院讲学时，还专门说到我采访他，给他写了一篇好文章,刊登在《文化交流》杂志上。李博士离开浙江时，又向我要了15本《文化交流》杂志带回美国。（本文照片均为陈谋荃摄）□
My Interviews of Dr. Henry Lee
By Jiang Minda
The media across Zhejiang buzzed in early April, 2008 when journalists learned that Dr. Henry Lee was to visit Zhejiang. At that time I worked for the Office of Overseas Chinese Affairs, the office in charge of receiving the world-famous criminologist during his visit to the province. Before the arrival of the modern Holms, I received a call from Mr. Fu Tongxian, editor-in-chief of Cultural Dialogue. He asked if it was possible for me to interview Dr. Lee. I was in the privileged position, for I was to accompany Dr. Lee all the way through his visit across Zhejiang. I said okay even though I knew I would be extremely busy.
But I was little bit worried. Dr. Lee is famous for his brilliant contribution to forensic science. During his career, he helped solve more than 8,000 big cases in 42 countries across the world. I had never met him before. Would he agree to talk with me? Moreover, his visit to Zhejiang was scheduled for about four days and the schedule was a tight arrangement of many activities.
At about eight thirty on the morning of April 8, Dr. Lee and his wife Margaret reached Hangzhou by expressway from Shanghai. We met the couple at the exit of the expressway in Hangzhou and took them to the Xizi Guest House on the West Lake. I had never seen Dr. Lee in person before, but I was impressed by the amiable old man. After the lunch I briefed Dr. Lee on the schedule for his stay in Zhejiang. Then I said I would be accompanying him and his wife during their stay in the province. In addition, I would like to interview him and write a feature story for the Cultural Dialogue. Dr. Lee chuckled and said I would have more time to chat with him since I would be with him throughout his visit.
He did have a full schedule in Zhejiang. The only free time that I had for interviewing with him was during breakfast and during our ride to somewhere. During interviews, Dr. Lee talked a lot and I put in some questions here and there. We went through a lot of subjects, touching upon his life and his career.
I spent four nights drafting and polishing and every night I worked into small hours. I managed to give a feature story of about 7,000 words to Dr. Lee for review at the last night he was in Zhejiang. The next morning he gave the story back to me, commenting that I had done a nice job of covering his life within a brief period of a few days.
The manuscript came back with six photographs from Dr. Lee which he said had never been published before. His wife Margaret commented that Dr. Lee usually did not review feature stories about him, but my story was an exception. He spent more than an hour going through the manuscript. He made 13 corrections.
On the afternoon of April 15, I brought the text and photographs to Mr. Fu Tongxian at the editorial office of the Cultural Dialogue. The story came out in the June issue of the Cultural Dialogue. On June 25, Dr. Lee called me from USA, expressing his appreciation for the warm reception he received during his visit to Zhejiang. He asked if the feature story had been published. I said yes. He was glad to ask if I could bring copies to him as he planned to visit Shanghai in October that year.
I was unable to go to Shanghai to meet him, for I had a meeting to attend in October. So I asked someone else to take five copies and an album of postal stamps to Dr. Lee.
On November 20, I received a fax from Dr. Lee in USA. He said he had received the copies of Cultural Dialogue. He said it was good publication and the story I wrote was very good. He expressed his appreciation.
In April, 2009, Dr. Lee came to Zhejiang Police Academy for a lecture. At the lecture, he mentioned my interviews with him, the feature story and the Cultural Dialogue. He requested 15 copies of the Cultural Dialogue and took them back to the USA. □
一
2008年4月，美籍华人、著名国际刑侦专家李昌钰博士一行来我省访问的消息，不胫而走，省有关单位和新闻媒体十分关注，纷纷向省侨办询问李昌钰博士一行来浙江访问的有关情况。我接到《文化交流》杂志总编辑的电话，约我写一篇李昌钰的专访,为《文化交流》独家供稿。尽管当时工作和接待任务繁重，但因为我与总编辑是多年朋友，也就应允下来。
现在回想起来，我那时答应采访李博士,真是有些贸然。李昌钰博士是世界著名刑事鉴识科学家,40多年来他在全球42个国家参与侦破了8000多起重大案件，被媒体誉为“当代福尔摩斯”、“物证鉴识大师”、“科学神探”,他的名字与被称为“世纪大审判”的辛普森杀妻案、克林顿性丑闻案、肯尼迪遇刺案、克林顿白宫副顾问自杀案等一件件轰动全球的惊世大案联系在一起。这样—位世界名人，我只是通过媒体了解过他,但从未见过面，他会接受我的采访吗?我心存疑虑。况且李博士在浙江访问只有四五天时间，日程安排十分紧凑,有没有时间接受我的采访我也心中无底。
4月8日上午约8时30分，李博士与夫人宋妙娟女士从上海浦东国际机场乘车到达杭州,我陪省侨办领导在高速公路杭州彭埠出口处迎候。因为有警车开道，所以车队行驶不到20分钟就到了下榻的西子宾馆。虽然旅途有些劳累，但李博士仍面带笑容，腰板挺直，很有精神。我第一次见到李博士，就感觉他是一位十分和蔼可亲的老人,说话不紧不慢，非常平易近人，一点名人的架子也没有。当天吃过中饭,我向李博士报告了来浙江访问的日程安排及接待方案后，他高兴地说，安排得十分周到，谢谢你们。尔后，我忐忑不安地对李博士说:“这次除了全程陪同您访问外，还有一个任务是想采访您，完成《文化交流》杂志的一篇专访。不知您同意吗?”李博士笑了笑回答：“可以呵，你们宣传我是件好事。你与记者不一样，全程陪同我，采访比他们时间多。我们可以抽时间多聊聊呵。”李博士一番话，不仅打消了我原有 的疑虑和胆怯,而且增添了我采访的信心和勇气。
李博士此次来浙江访问，省领导高度重视和关心, 并给予高规格的礼遇。4月10日下午，省委书记、省人大常委会主任赵洪祝亲切会见了他和夫人宋妙娟。赵洪祝书记说，李博士有“神探”之名,希望能对浙江社会治安工作多提宝贵的意见和建议，帮助我省公安干警不断提高刑侦水平。李博士表示，愿意与同行切磋交流，分享经验，为浙江省的社会治安略尽绵薄之力。会见结束时，赵书记向李博士赠送了织锦画《四季西湖》；李博士向赵书记赠送了他最近撰写出版的两本新书和美国警察茄克衣,赵书记还穿上美国警察茄克衣高兴地与李博士合影留念。会见后,时任副省长钟山宴请了李博士一行。在浙江访问的5天时间里，李博士拜访了省公安部门领导，并与公安干警进行了刑事侦查交流并演讲；到浙江警察学院、浙江工商大学讲学，并受聘名誉教授；还赴海盐等地考察，看望基层公安干警。因为李博士行程安排十分紧张，因此我的采访只能见缝插针。
二
我因有幸全程陪同李博士一行，所以早餐和坐车时是我采访的最好时机。我在采访中，听李博士讲得最多的是他用科学、独特的刑事侦察与鉴识技术侦破案件的故事。李博士向我介绍，“刑事鉴识科学”将物理、化学、医学、生物学等自然科学的原理及方法应用到刑事侦查和法庭工作上，能借助先进的科学技术找到确凿的物证,以物证证明被告有罪或无罪或不在现场，减少了人为的主观色彩，使破案结果更为准确、客观。“如果不但没有证人,而且生不见人死不见尸，这样的失踪案又如何侦破呢?”我问道。李博士向我讲述了很多案例,比如“碎木机下冤魂案”、“警察杀人案”、“百慕大美少女命案”、“神秘血手印案”等侦破故事。李博士说，现代人应该具有鉴识意识，学会用鉴识技术来保护自己。不但是刑事侦查领域，就是我们的日常生活中也会用到鉴识技术。在美国,中餐馆很多,生意也不错。有一次,有一位美国老太太投诉她吃的春卷中有猫肉、狗肉,给那家中餐馆带来了很大的麻烦,还严重影响了中国人的形象。后来经过物证鉴识，春卷用猫肉、狗肉的说法纯属子虚乌有，那家中餐馆也讨回了公道与清白。
李博士除了以他精湛的刑事侦察与鉴识技术享誉全球外，他的艰苦奋斗经历,也使我深受教育和启发。作为世界顶级的鉴识科学家，李博士一生获得了800多个荣誉奖项。2005年，他106岁高龄的母亲去世，美国现任和历任总统都发来了慰问信，称她为最伟大的母亲。出殡时，美国警车前来开道，为华人赢得无上尊荣。我问李博士；“人生成功的秘诀是什么?”他笑了笑说，人生最重要的是坚守理想,知难而上。碰到再大的困难也要想办法去克服，这样才有可能成功。1965年他初到美国时身上只有50美元，不久太太怀孕生了孩子，生活费、学费使压力更大了。他白天上课，晚上到餐馆端盘子，周末去教中国功夫。为了节省5分钱，他下班、下课后再累都走路回家。工作、学习之外，每天只能睡3至4个小时,但他并不消极,而认为这正是锻炼自己的好机会。他边看书、边看电视、边听音乐、边照顾孩子，因此训练了思维能力，乃至日后可与三个人同时谈话,还能思考案件。就这样他一步一步，以超常的毅力，以多出常人几倍心血的付出，登上事业的高峰。李博士对我说：“我年轻时穷,上不了哈佛大学；后来有了钱,他们又说我成绩不好。现在哈佛花重金来请我去演讲。”李博士还说，即使不是名牌大学毕业,只要在一个领域里刻苦钻研几十年，也可以成为顶尖人才。成功属于勤奋的人。
在短短几天与李博士夫妇接触、交往中，我发现李博士夫人宋妙娟女士十分贤惠,对李博士体贴入微。每次李博士演讲,宋妙娟女士总是坐在台下静静听着；演讲结束后,将亲手泡好的热茶端给李博士喝。我好奇地问李博士的家庭情况,他坦率地和我讲起与夫人相识、相知、相爱的爱情故事及美满幸福的家庭，还从文件包里找出了他与夫人年轻时的合影照片给我看。李博士说:“这张照片送给你吧，配你写的专访文章用。”李博士还风趣地说，这是我第一次公开家庭“隐私”呵。当时我手里拿着照片，十分激动地连声说：“谢谢!”
三
在采访李博士中，我被他那种艰苦奋斗的精神、百折不挠的毅力、至诚信义的品德和爱祖（籍）国、爱家乡的热情感动着，冲击着，激励着……让我终生难忘和心灵震撼。正是这种感动和震撼，也正是李博士的支持和鼓励，我连续4个晚上写作到凌晨两、三点钟，撰写了7000多字的专访《当代“福尔摩斯”李昌钰》，并赶在李博士一行离开浙江的前一天晚上,送交李博士审阅。4月13日早上8点左右，我到李博士房间请他吃早饭，他将亲笔修改过的稿子递给我后说:“文章写得不错。短短几天写了我一生，不容易。”李博士还把从未在报刊上发表过的6张工作照片送给我配专访文章用。在一旁的李夫人说：“李博士对采访他的文章一般不看也不修改,这是破例第一次。昨天晚上他还戴着老花眼镜认真仔细地看了一个多小时呢。”李博士能在百忙中抽出时间来亲自审阅和修改我写的文章，我感到无比幸运和激动。当天晚上，我认认真真地看了稿子，李博士亲笔修改了13处之多。比如我在写《碎木机下冤魂案》的侦破故事中，有一段原文是：“为证实尸体确实是用碎木机粉碎，李昌钰将猪的骨头和肉一起放入碎木机，其碎渣与海伦尸体碎渣形状完全一样。”后来李博士修改为:“李昌钰将全猪的骨头和肉一起放入碎木机……”加了一个“全”,虽是一字之差，却纠正了我的误写。可见李博士是多么认真和严谨。
4月15日下午，我将采访李博士的文章和照片送到《文化交流》杂志社，交给总编辑。6月上旬，《文化交流》第六期发表了《当代“福尔摩斯”李昌钰》一文。6月25日，李博士从美国特地给我打来电话说，对浙江接待十分满意，表示感谢，并问起文章有没有发表。我告诉李博士已经发表,他十分高兴地说今年10月中旬到上海能否将《文化交流》杂志当面送他。当时我因有一个重要会议抽不开身，故在10月18日那天委托浙江工商大学法学院孔院长带去5本《文化交流》杂志和一本邮票册送给李博士。
11月20日,李博士从美国发来传真,写道:“《文化交流》已收到，杂志办得很好；文章也写得很好,谢谢。”2009年4月李博士再次来访问并在浙江警察学院讲学时，还专门说到我采访他，给他写了一篇好文章,刊登在《文化交流》杂志上。李博士离开浙江时，又向我要了15本《文化交流》杂志带回美国。（本文照片均为陈谋荃摄）□
My Interviews of Dr. Henry Lee
By Jiang Minda
The media across Zhejiang buzzed in early April, 2008 when journalists learned that Dr. Henry Lee was to visit Zhejiang. At that time I worked for the Office of Overseas Chinese Affairs, the office in charge of receiving the world-famous criminologist during his visit to the province. Before the arrival of the modern Holms, I received a call from Mr. Fu Tongxian, editor-in-chief of Cultural Dialogue. He asked if it was possible for me to interview Dr. Lee. I was in the privileged position, for I was to accompany Dr. Lee all the way through his visit across Zhejiang. I said okay even though I knew I would be extremely busy.
But I was little bit worried. Dr. Lee is famous for his brilliant contribution to forensic science. During his career, he helped solve more than 8,000 big cases in 42 countries across the world. I had never met him before. Would he agree to talk with me? Moreover, his visit to Zhejiang was scheduled for about four days and the schedule was a tight arrangement of many activities.
At about eight thirty on the morning of April 8, Dr. Lee and his wife Margaret reached Hangzhou by expressway from Shanghai. We met the couple at the exit of the expressway in Hangzhou and took them to the Xizi Guest House on the West Lake. I had never seen Dr. Lee in person before, but I was impressed by the amiable old man. After the lunch I briefed Dr. Lee on the schedule for his stay in Zhejiang. Then I said I would be accompanying him and his wife during their stay in the province. In addition, I would like to interview him and write a feature story for the Cultural Dialogue. Dr. Lee chuckled and said I would have more time to chat with him since I would be with him throughout his visit.
He did have a full schedule in Zhejiang. The only free time that I had for interviewing with him was during breakfast and during our ride to somewhere. During interviews, Dr. Lee talked a lot and I put in some questions here and there. We went through a lot of subjects, touching upon his life and his career.
I spent four nights drafting and polishing and every night I worked into small hours. I managed to give a feature story of about 7,000 words to Dr. Lee for review at the last night he was in Zhejiang. The next morning he gave the story back to me, commenting that I had done a nice job of covering his life within a brief period of a few days.
The manuscript came back with six photographs from Dr. Lee which he said had never been published before. His wife Margaret commented that Dr. Lee usually did not review feature stories about him, but my story was an exception. He spent more than an hour going through the manuscript. He made 13 corrections.
On the afternoon of April 15, I brought the text and photographs to Mr. Fu Tongxian at the editorial office of the Cultural Dialogue. The story came out in the June issue of the Cultural Dialogue. On June 25, Dr. Lee called me from USA, expressing his appreciation for the warm reception he received during his visit to Zhejiang. He asked if the feature story had been published. I said yes. He was glad to ask if I could bring copies to him as he planned to visit Shanghai in October that year.
I was unable to go to Shanghai to meet him, for I had a meeting to attend in October. So I asked someone else to take five copies and an album of postal stamps to Dr. Lee.
On November 20, I received a fax from Dr. Lee in USA. He said he had received the copies of Cultural Dialogue. He said it was good publication and the story I wrote was very good. He expressed his appreciation.
In April, 2009, Dr. Lee came to Zhejiang Police Academy for a lecture. At the lecture, he mentioned my interviews with him, the feature story and the Cultural Dialogue. He requested 15 copies of the Cultural Dialogue and took them back to the USA. □