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2006年，17岁的泰勒·斯威夫特（Taylor Swift）出道之时，就凭借清新的邻家女孩形象、淳朴的乡村音乐曲风征服了无数青少年，首张唱片便获得美国唱片业协会5倍白金唱片认证，成为名副其实的小天后。2014年，25岁的斯威夫特发行了第5张个人专辑《1989》，仅仅一周的时间便获得白金销量，魅力依舊不减。8年间，斯威夫特在不断成长，《1989》从她拿手的乡村音乐转型为流行音乐，不仅如此，昔日的淳朴女孩也愈加成熟，她希望透过自己的歌曲，让喜爱她的和质疑她的人们都能重新认识她。
Melissa Block （Host）： Her new album， released Monday， is on track to eclipse 1 million sales in its first week. The last artist to go platinum in a week in the past two years—that was Taylor Swift. （Soundbite of song， “Shake It Off”） Her new album is titled “1989.”That’s the year Taylor Swift was born， which means she’s not quite 25 years old. And she joins me from New York， where she moved this year. Taylor， welcome to the program.
Taylor Swift： Hey.
Block： I enlisted some expert outside counsel for this interview， my 12-year-old daughter. And I want to start with a question from her.
Swift： That’s amazing.
Block： Here’s her question—in your hit song “Shake It Off，”why did you address the song to your haters and not your motivators？
Swift： I think that with the song “Shake It Off，” I really wanted to take back the narrative and sort of have more of a sense of humor about people who kind of get under my skin and not let them get under my skin. This is an issue that I wrote about before. I had an album…
Block： With the song “Mean，” yeah？
Swift： Yes. Wow， OK， so I don’t even have to tell you that. But there’s a song that I wrote a couple years ago called“Mean，” where I addressed the same issue， but I addressed it very differently. I said， why you got to be so mean？ Like， and addressed—like， it from a kind of a victimized perspective， which is how we all approach bullying or gossip when it happens to us for the first time. But in the last few years， I’ve gotten better at just kind of laughing off things that absolutely have no bearing on my real life.
Block： Well， here’s a related question about the same song from a seventh grader. She’s thinking about the lyrics. And she says that sounds a lot like middle school. Do you have anything that you can tell a middle-school girl to help shake it off？
Swift： She’s exactly right. When I was in middle school， I had this fantasy that when we were in school， we had to deal with bullying and kids picking on you for no reason or picking on you’cause you’re different. And I thought that when you grow up， that it’s not like that anymore. （Soundbite of song， “Shake It Off”） So I guess what I try to encourage girls who are in middle school to do is to figure out a way to distract yourself from that negativity. Figure out what kind of art you love to create or your favorite hobby or something to throw all of your energy into， and realize that you’re gonna have to learn how to cope with this at some point because it’s never going to end necessarily. Block： You know， I’ve been thinking about this a lot because I am the mother of a 12-year-old girl. And she loves your music. Her friends love your music. You have a huge platform among a very vulnerable， impressionable set of the population. And I wonder if you think about turning your lens outward， turning it away from the diary page and sending a broader message to girls who would be really receptive to hearing about big ideas and the big world that’s outside？ Swift： Like， what kind of messages？
Block： Well， other characters. I mean， I don’t mean to minimize the effect of a love song or a pop song， but do you ever think about writing in the voice of other characters， other experiences， things that might turn girls away from themselves in a different way？
Swift： There’s nothing that’s gonna turn girls away from themselves at age 12. I think that I have brought feminism up in every single interview I’ve done， because I think it’s important that a girl who’s 12 years old understands what that means.
And in talking to so many girls that age， we are dealing with a huge self-esteem crisis. These girls are able to scroll down pictures of the highlight reels of other people’s lives and they’re stuck with the behindthe-scenes of their own lives. It’s so easy and readily available to compare yourself to others and to feel like you lose and you’re not as cool. I just try to tell girls that this is what my life looks like. I love my life. I’ve never， ever felt edgy， cool or sexy—not one time. And that it’s not important for them to be those things—it’s important for them to be imaginative， intelligent， hardworking， strong， smart， charming. I think that there are bigger themes I can be explaining to them and I think I’m trying as hard as I possibly can to do that.
Block： You mentioned earlier that you try to talk about feminism. What does feminism mean to you？
Swift： I mean， by my basic definition， it means that you hope for the equal rights and opportunities for men and women.
Block： And how does that play out in the music world that you’re a part of？ I mean， do you feel like that’s not an issue for you anymore？
Swift： It’s completely an issue. It’s an issue every day that I read a headline that says “careful guys， she’ll write a song about you.” Meanwhile， I have， you know， best friends who are male musicians and songwriters who write songs about their girlfriends， their ex-girlfriends and that joke is never made about them.
梅丽莎·布洛克（主持人）：她周一发行的新专辑，有望在首周突破百万销量。（译者注：新专辑于2014年10月27日發行。）近两年在一周内唱片达到白金销量的最新一位艺人，她就是泰勒·斯威夫特。（歌曲《摆脱它》片段）她的新专辑名为《1989》，那是泰勒·斯威夫特出生的年份，这意味着她将近25岁了。她在纽约参与我们的节目，她今年搬到了纽约。泰勒，欢迎到节目中来。
泰勒·斯威夫特：你好。
布洛克：为了这次采访，我请教了一些外部专业顾问，我12岁的女儿就是其中之一。我想先问她的问题吧。
斯威夫特：好极了。
布洛克：她的问题是——在你的热门歌曲《摆脱它》中，为什么你称这首歌是献给讨厌你的人而不是鼓励你的人？
斯威夫特：我想，在《摆脱它》这首歌里，我真的不想用叙述的方式，而是有点像加入了更多幽默的元素去写那些使我生气的人，让他们不再惹恼我。这个问题以前我也写过，我有张专辑…… 布洛克：叫作《卑鄙》的歌曲，是吧？
斯威夫特：是的。哇，好的，所以我甚至不必告诉你这些。但是几年前我写了一首歌叫作《卑鄙》，说的也是同样的问题，现在我却会用非常不同的方式来处理。我以前说，你为什么那么卑鄙？像是在说——像是一种类似受害者的语气，这是我们所有人第一次受到欺负或面对流言时都会有的表现。但是在过去几年里，我能更好地处理了，对那些毫不影响我现实生活的事情，我会一笑置之。
布洛克：嗯，还有一个七年级学生的问题与这首歌有关。她在思考歌词，她说听起来非常像是描写中学生活。你有什么想对中学女生说的，来帮助她们甩掉坏情绪？
斯威夫特：她说得很对。当我读中学时，我也这么幻想，上学时要遭受欺负（Soundbite of song， “Out of the Woods”）和其他孩子的招惹，无缘无故，或者是因为你与他们不同。我想，当你长大了，就不再像那样了。（歌曲《摆脱它》片段）所以我觉得，我想要鼓励中学女生的是找到一个方法把注意力从那些消极影响中分散开。找到你喜欢去创造的某种艺术、最喜欢的爱好或是你愿意将所有精力投入其中的某件事物，并且明白你将会在某一段时间必须学会如何面对这个问题，因为它不会自然终止。
布洛克：你知道的，我一直在思考这个问题，因为我是一个12岁女孩的母亲。她喜爱你的音乐，她的朋友喜爱你的音乐。你在一群脆弱的、易受影响的群体里颇具人气。我在想，你有没有想过扩展你的眼界，少说一些日常琐事，给女孩们提供更多的信息？她们真的乐于听听不错的想法以及外面广阔世界的故事。斯威夫特：比如，什么样的信息呢？
布洛克：嗯，其他类型。我是说，我并不是低估爱情歌曲和流行歌曲的影响，但是你有没有想过写出不一样的歌，把其他类型、其他经历、可能使女孩们讨厌自己的东西用歌声表达出来？
斯威夫特：没有什么会使12岁的女孩讨厌自己。我觉得，我在每一次个人采访时都提到女权主义，是因为我觉得让一个12岁的女孩明白这意味着什么很重要。
在和那么多这般年纪的女孩聊天时，我们要处理一个很大的自尊问题。这些女孩可以浏览到他人光鲜生活的照片，自己的现实生活却处处受阻。这很容易地、明摆着地将自己与他人作比较，感觉到自己是个失败者，没有那么酷。我只是想要告诉女孩们，这是我生活的原貌。我爱我的生活，我绝不、从未觉得自己尖锐、时髦或者性感——一次也没有过。这些对她们来说都不重要——重要的是，她们要变得充满想象力、机智、勤恳、强大、聪明而富有魅力。我想这些就是我可以向他们解释的更宽广的主题，我想我会尽我所能这么做。
布洛克：你之前提到你努力谈及女权主义。女权主义对你来说意味着什么？
斯威夫特：我是说，在我的基本定义里，它意味着你希望男女之间拥有平等的权利和同等的机会。
布洛克：它在你身处的音乐圈是如何体现的？我是说，你是否觉得这对你来说已经不是个问题了？
斯威夫特：這完全是个问题。这个问题每天都会出现，我都会看到这样那样的头条说，“小心吧，伙计，她会写一首关于你的歌。”与此同时，你知道的，我最好的朋友们，他们有的是男音乐家，有的是男作曲家，他们给自己的女友、前女友写歌，但是这样的玩笑却从来不会开在他们身上。（歌曲《丛林之外》片段）
Melissa Block （Host）： Her new album， released Monday， is on track to eclipse 1 million sales in its first week. The last artist to go platinum in a week in the past two years—that was Taylor Swift. （Soundbite of song， “Shake It Off”） Her new album is titled “1989.”That’s the year Taylor Swift was born， which means she’s not quite 25 years old. And she joins me from New York， where she moved this year. Taylor， welcome to the program.
Taylor Swift： Hey.
Block： I enlisted some expert outside counsel for this interview， my 12-year-old daughter. And I want to start with a question from her.
Swift： That’s amazing.
Block： Here’s her question—in your hit song “Shake It Off，”why did you address the song to your haters and not your motivators？
Swift： I think that with the song “Shake It Off，” I really wanted to take back the narrative and sort of have more of a sense of humor about people who kind of get under my skin and not let them get under my skin. This is an issue that I wrote about before. I had an album…
Block： With the song “Mean，” yeah？
Swift： Yes. Wow， OK， so I don’t even have to tell you that. But there’s a song that I wrote a couple years ago called“Mean，” where I addressed the same issue， but I addressed it very differently. I said， why you got to be so mean？ Like， and addressed—like， it from a kind of a victimized perspective， which is how we all approach bullying or gossip when it happens to us for the first time. But in the last few years， I’ve gotten better at just kind of laughing off things that absolutely have no bearing on my real life.
Block： Well， here’s a related question about the same song from a seventh grader. She’s thinking about the lyrics. And she says that sounds a lot like middle school. Do you have anything that you can tell a middle-school girl to help shake it off？
Swift： She’s exactly right. When I was in middle school， I had this fantasy that when we were in school， we had to deal with bullying and kids picking on you for no reason or picking on you’cause you’re different. And I thought that when you grow up， that it’s not like that anymore. （Soundbite of song， “Shake It Off”） So I guess what I try to encourage girls who are in middle school to do is to figure out a way to distract yourself from that negativity. Figure out what kind of art you love to create or your favorite hobby or something to throw all of your energy into， and realize that you’re gonna have to learn how to cope with this at some point because it’s never going to end necessarily. Block： You know， I’ve been thinking about this a lot because I am the mother of a 12-year-old girl. And she loves your music. Her friends love your music. You have a huge platform among a very vulnerable， impressionable set of the population. And I wonder if you think about turning your lens outward， turning it away from the diary page and sending a broader message to girls who would be really receptive to hearing about big ideas and the big world that’s outside？ Swift： Like， what kind of messages？
Block： Well， other characters. I mean， I don’t mean to minimize the effect of a love song or a pop song， but do you ever think about writing in the voice of other characters， other experiences， things that might turn girls away from themselves in a different way？
Swift： There’s nothing that’s gonna turn girls away from themselves at age 12. I think that I have brought feminism up in every single interview I’ve done， because I think it’s important that a girl who’s 12 years old understands what that means.
And in talking to so many girls that age， we are dealing with a huge self-esteem crisis. These girls are able to scroll down pictures of the highlight reels of other people’s lives and they’re stuck with the behindthe-scenes of their own lives. It’s so easy and readily available to compare yourself to others and to feel like you lose and you’re not as cool. I just try to tell girls that this is what my life looks like. I love my life. I’ve never， ever felt edgy， cool or sexy—not one time. And that it’s not important for them to be those things—it’s important for them to be imaginative， intelligent， hardworking， strong， smart， charming. I think that there are bigger themes I can be explaining to them and I think I’m trying as hard as I possibly can to do that.
Block： You mentioned earlier that you try to talk about feminism. What does feminism mean to you？
Swift： I mean， by my basic definition， it means that you hope for the equal rights and opportunities for men and women.
Block： And how does that play out in the music world that you’re a part of？ I mean， do you feel like that’s not an issue for you anymore？
Swift： It’s completely an issue. It’s an issue every day that I read a headline that says “careful guys， she’ll write a song about you.” Meanwhile， I have， you know， best friends who are male musicians and songwriters who write songs about their girlfriends， their ex-girlfriends and that joke is never made about them.
梅丽莎·布洛克（主持人）：她周一发行的新专辑，有望在首周突破百万销量。（译者注：新专辑于2014年10月27日發行。）近两年在一周内唱片达到白金销量的最新一位艺人，她就是泰勒·斯威夫特。（歌曲《摆脱它》片段）她的新专辑名为《1989》，那是泰勒·斯威夫特出生的年份，这意味着她将近25岁了。她在纽约参与我们的节目，她今年搬到了纽约。泰勒，欢迎到节目中来。
泰勒·斯威夫特：你好。
布洛克：为了这次采访，我请教了一些外部专业顾问，我12岁的女儿就是其中之一。我想先问她的问题吧。
斯威夫特：好极了。
布洛克：她的问题是——在你的热门歌曲《摆脱它》中，为什么你称这首歌是献给讨厌你的人而不是鼓励你的人？
斯威夫特：我想，在《摆脱它》这首歌里，我真的不想用叙述的方式，而是有点像加入了更多幽默的元素去写那些使我生气的人，让他们不再惹恼我。这个问题以前我也写过，我有张专辑…… 布洛克：叫作《卑鄙》的歌曲，是吧？
斯威夫特：是的。哇，好的，所以我甚至不必告诉你这些。但是几年前我写了一首歌叫作《卑鄙》，说的也是同样的问题，现在我却会用非常不同的方式来处理。我以前说，你为什么那么卑鄙？像是在说——像是一种类似受害者的语气，这是我们所有人第一次受到欺负或面对流言时都会有的表现。但是在过去几年里，我能更好地处理了，对那些毫不影响我现实生活的事情，我会一笑置之。
布洛克：嗯，还有一个七年级学生的问题与这首歌有关。她在思考歌词，她说听起来非常像是描写中学生活。你有什么想对中学女生说的，来帮助她们甩掉坏情绪？
斯威夫特：她说得很对。当我读中学时，我也这么幻想，上学时要遭受欺负（Soundbite of song， “Out of the Woods”）和其他孩子的招惹，无缘无故，或者是因为你与他们不同。我想，当你长大了，就不再像那样了。（歌曲《摆脱它》片段）所以我觉得，我想要鼓励中学女生的是找到一个方法把注意力从那些消极影响中分散开。找到你喜欢去创造的某种艺术、最喜欢的爱好或是你愿意将所有精力投入其中的某件事物，并且明白你将会在某一段时间必须学会如何面对这个问题，因为它不会自然终止。
布洛克：你知道的，我一直在思考这个问题，因为我是一个12岁女孩的母亲。她喜爱你的音乐，她的朋友喜爱你的音乐。你在一群脆弱的、易受影响的群体里颇具人气。我在想，你有没有想过扩展你的眼界，少说一些日常琐事，给女孩们提供更多的信息？她们真的乐于听听不错的想法以及外面广阔世界的故事。斯威夫特：比如，什么样的信息呢？
布洛克：嗯，其他类型。我是说，我并不是低估爱情歌曲和流行歌曲的影响，但是你有没有想过写出不一样的歌，把其他类型、其他经历、可能使女孩们讨厌自己的东西用歌声表达出来？
斯威夫特：没有什么会使12岁的女孩讨厌自己。我觉得，我在每一次个人采访时都提到女权主义，是因为我觉得让一个12岁的女孩明白这意味着什么很重要。
在和那么多这般年纪的女孩聊天时，我们要处理一个很大的自尊问题。这些女孩可以浏览到他人光鲜生活的照片，自己的现实生活却处处受阻。这很容易地、明摆着地将自己与他人作比较，感觉到自己是个失败者，没有那么酷。我只是想要告诉女孩们，这是我生活的原貌。我爱我的生活，我绝不、从未觉得自己尖锐、时髦或者性感——一次也没有过。这些对她们来说都不重要——重要的是，她们要变得充满想象力、机智、勤恳、强大、聪明而富有魅力。我想这些就是我可以向他们解释的更宽广的主题，我想我会尽我所能这么做。
布洛克：你之前提到你努力谈及女权主义。女权主义对你来说意味着什么？
斯威夫特：我是说，在我的基本定义里，它意味着你希望男女之间拥有平等的权利和同等的机会。
布洛克：它在你身处的音乐圈是如何体现的？我是说，你是否觉得这对你来说已经不是个问题了？
斯威夫特：這完全是个问题。这个问题每天都会出现，我都会看到这样那样的头条说，“小心吧，伙计，她会写一首关于你的歌。”与此同时，你知道的，我最好的朋友们，他们有的是男音乐家，有的是男作曲家，他们给自己的女友、前女友写歌，但是这样的玩笑却从来不会开在他们身上。（歌曲《丛林之外》片段）