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Host： Today， graffiti： ancient stuff， modern stuff， and a kind of a clash between the ancient and the modern. You may have heard about the case earlier of the Chinese graffiti in Egypt. OK， so this kid gets given a really hard time， but maybe it’s just a bit unfair. Maybe he was just channeling the habits of antiquity，’cause， in ancient times， graffiti， it didn’t really 2）connote 3）vandalism the way that it does today. That may have been out of place in ancient Roman or Greek or Egyptian times， but graffiti certainly was around then， and not only was it around， it was kind of encouraged. So says Chloé Ragozalie. She studies ancient graffiti. That’s gotta be a fun job.
主持人：今天要谈的是涂鸦，这是古老的东西，也是现代的东西，有点像古今碰撞的产物。你也许听说过早些时候关于中国人在埃及留下涂鸦的事情。这个孩子因此受到了严厉的谴责，但这样对他可能不太公平，也许他只不过是给我们呈现古时候的一种常见做法罢了，因为在古代，涂鸦并不像今天这样被看成是一种恣意破坏的行为。涂鸦在古罗马、古希腊或者古埃及也许不是平常事，但在当时，涂鸦肯定是存在的，而且不仅如此，这种行为可以说还受到了鼓励。克洛伊·雷各扎立正是这样告诉我们的，古代涂鸦是她的研究内容，那一定是个有意思的工作。
Chloé： I would say that in ancient Egypt， it was socially accepted and maybe even expected on its part of showing off your status in life， where nowadays we see it as a 4）subversive 5）hooliganism attitude.
Host： Did leaders in ancient Egypt kind of encourage graffiti？
Chloé： Well， you have graffiti in pretty official places—a tomb， a temple—so you have the feeling that they were some kind of official， like a privilege， which was granted.
Host： And as you say， I mean it was kind of just an impulse for people， who were in a place， and they wanted to leave a memory that they were there to say“I was here，” but I mean， have you found anything 6）risqué that kind of corresponds to contemporary graffiti， 7）foul language， insults，…？
Chloé： Yeah， absolutely. You find criticism， you find private joke， you find 8）witticism， you even have 9）pornographic graffiti.
Host： So I’m just curious， I mean as for the writing—not the drawings， but the writing—how was literacy at the time？ Could the average ancient Egyptian read what was written in this graffiti？
Chloé： No， absolutely not， and I think that’s the mistake we made for a very long time. As Egyptologists， we considered this as， you know， secondary inscriptions， not realizing that they had to be made by very high officials because they were those who could write at the time. We consider that maybe one percent of the ancient Egyptian population could read and write.
克洛伊：在古代的埃及，涂鸦行为在社会上是被大家接受的，而且如果你想炫耀自己的身份，这种行为甚至是意料之中的事，但在当今社会，我们视之为具破坏性的流氓行为。 主持人；古埃及的领导人会鼓励涂鸦行为吗？
克洛伊：呃，涂鸦通常出现在带官方色彩的地方，如陵墓、神庙等，所以你感觉得到这种行为有点像是官方赋予的特权。
主持人：正如你说的，我的意思是那通常是人的一时冲动，他们身处某处，会想在所到之处留下一点记忆，想说“我来过了”，但是，在你的研究当中，有没有看到与我们现代社会相似的一些有伤风雅的涂鸦，比如说粗俗的语言、对其他人的侮辱……克洛伊：当然，绝对有。你会看到批评性涂鸦、私密的笑话、俏皮话，你还会看到色情涂鸦。
主持人：我很好奇，说到涂写——我是指涂写，而不是涂画——当时有多少埃及人识字？在古埃及，普通人都看得懂涂鸦的内容吗？
克洛伊：看不明白，肯定看不懂。我觉得有很长一段时间，我们都犯了一个错误。我们这些专门研究埃及的学者把这些涂鸦看成是无关重要的铭文，并没有意识到由于当时只有高官们会写字，所以写下这些涂鸦的人只能是他们。我们认为大概只有百分之一的古埃及人会读写。
Host： So that’s Egypt. I’m just curious where else in the world have you found ancient graffiti that’s kind of surprised you？
Chloé： I would say everywhere I did look.
Host： Really？！
Chloé： Yes.
Host： And any place that doesn’t have graffiti？
Chloé： When you don’t find them is because you don’t find a place where they could have been written on. Either the settlements have been destroyed. You know， even in Maya society obviously they had graffiti.
Host： Do you think graffiti anywhere around the world follows anything thematic？
Chloé： I would say that the main common feature is that it’s a social practice. It’s something you do to be part of a community， and it’s still true nowadays， you know， with graffiti that we see as part of some underground culture and that can be pornographic or 10）transgressive. The people would do it…do it to be part of a group， of a group of naughty boys， if you want. And in ancient Egypt， in Rome， in China， each time it’s to claim are you belonging to a certain social group.
Host： So you do see similar messages， no matter where you go around the world？
Chloé： “I was there and I belong to that kind of group.”It’s part of identity claiming. “I came here as a scribe.”In Greece， “I came here as a minor.”
Host： Right. Just like that kid from China. He was just there in Luxor saying “I was here.”
Chloé： When I saw that thing， I was amazed because that’s the most basic graffiti from ancient Egypt to nowadays.
主持人：好，那是埃及的情况。我想问的是你在世界上别的什么地方看到过让你吃惊的涂鸦吗？
克洛伊：我研究的每一个地方都有。
主持人：真的？
克洛伊：对。
主持人：那有什么地方没有涂鸦的吗？
克洛伊：在没有发现涂鸦的地方，那是因为你没有找到他们可能涂鸦的地方。也许是他们当时的居民点早已被破坏。你知道吗，即使是玛雅社会里也很显然有涂鸦存在。
主持人：你认为世界上所有地方的涂鸦都有一定的主题性吗？
克洛伊：我认为最主要的共同特征是：涂鸦是一种社交行为。这是一个人归属于某个社群的行为标志。这一点，你知道，我们今天在一些非主流文化里看到的涂鸦也一样，有些可能带有色情意味，有的具有侵犯性。人们这样做就是为了表示自己是某一个社群的一部分，或者说是坏孩子中的一员。在古埃及、古罗马、古代中国，你的每一次涂鸦，都是要表明自己属于某一个社群。
主持人：这么说来，你在世界上的所有地方，看到的涂鸦都传达相似的信息吗？
克洛伊：“我来过这里，我是某个社群的人。”这是表明自己身份的一种做法。“我是一名抄写员，我来过这里。”在古希腊，“我是一名未成年人，我来过这里”。
主持人：正是，这就像中国的那个小孩子一样，他在埃及的神庙里涂鸦留言正是表明“到此一游”。
克洛伊：看到那条消息，我很惊讶，因为从古代埃及到当今社会，这正是涂鸦中最常见的内容。
主持人：今天要谈的是涂鸦，这是古老的东西，也是现代的东西，有点像古今碰撞的产物。你也许听说过早些时候关于中国人在埃及留下涂鸦的事情。这个孩子因此受到了严厉的谴责，但这样对他可能不太公平，也许他只不过是给我们呈现古时候的一种常见做法罢了，因为在古代，涂鸦并不像今天这样被看成是一种恣意破坏的行为。涂鸦在古罗马、古希腊或者古埃及也许不是平常事，但在当时，涂鸦肯定是存在的，而且不仅如此，这种行为可以说还受到了鼓励。克洛伊·雷各扎立正是这样告诉我们的，古代涂鸦是她的研究内容，那一定是个有意思的工作。
Chloé： I would say that in ancient Egypt， it was socially accepted and maybe even expected on its part of showing off your status in life， where nowadays we see it as a 4）subversive 5）hooliganism attitude.
Host： Did leaders in ancient Egypt kind of encourage graffiti？
Chloé： Well， you have graffiti in pretty official places—a tomb， a temple—so you have the feeling that they were some kind of official， like a privilege， which was granted.
Host： And as you say， I mean it was kind of just an impulse for people， who were in a place， and they wanted to leave a memory that they were there to say“I was here，” but I mean， have you found anything 6）risqué that kind of corresponds to contemporary graffiti， 7）foul language， insults，…？
Chloé： Yeah， absolutely. You find criticism， you find private joke， you find 8）witticism， you even have 9）pornographic graffiti.
Host： So I’m just curious， I mean as for the writing—not the drawings， but the writing—how was literacy at the time？ Could the average ancient Egyptian read what was written in this graffiti？
Chloé： No， absolutely not， and I think that’s the mistake we made for a very long time. As Egyptologists， we considered this as， you know， secondary inscriptions， not realizing that they had to be made by very high officials because they were those who could write at the time. We consider that maybe one percent of the ancient Egyptian population could read and write.
克洛伊：在古代的埃及，涂鸦行为在社会上是被大家接受的，而且如果你想炫耀自己的身份，这种行为甚至是意料之中的事，但在当今社会，我们视之为具破坏性的流氓行为。 主持人；古埃及的领导人会鼓励涂鸦行为吗？
克洛伊：呃，涂鸦通常出现在带官方色彩的地方，如陵墓、神庙等，所以你感觉得到这种行为有点像是官方赋予的特权。
主持人：正如你说的，我的意思是那通常是人的一时冲动，他们身处某处，会想在所到之处留下一点记忆，想说“我来过了”，但是，在你的研究当中，有没有看到与我们现代社会相似的一些有伤风雅的涂鸦，比如说粗俗的语言、对其他人的侮辱……克洛伊：当然，绝对有。你会看到批评性涂鸦、私密的笑话、俏皮话，你还会看到色情涂鸦。
主持人：我很好奇，说到涂写——我是指涂写，而不是涂画——当时有多少埃及人识字？在古埃及，普通人都看得懂涂鸦的内容吗？
克洛伊：看不明白，肯定看不懂。我觉得有很长一段时间，我们都犯了一个错误。我们这些专门研究埃及的学者把这些涂鸦看成是无关重要的铭文，并没有意识到由于当时只有高官们会写字，所以写下这些涂鸦的人只能是他们。我们认为大概只有百分之一的古埃及人会读写。
Host： So that’s Egypt. I’m just curious where else in the world have you found ancient graffiti that’s kind of surprised you？
Chloé： I would say everywhere I did look.
Host： Really？！
Chloé： Yes.
Host： And any place that doesn’t have graffiti？
Chloé： When you don’t find them is because you don’t find a place where they could have been written on. Either the settlements have been destroyed. You know， even in Maya society obviously they had graffiti.
Host： Do you think graffiti anywhere around the world follows anything thematic？
Chloé： I would say that the main common feature is that it’s a social practice. It’s something you do to be part of a community， and it’s still true nowadays， you know， with graffiti that we see as part of some underground culture and that can be pornographic or 10）transgressive. The people would do it…do it to be part of a group， of a group of naughty boys， if you want. And in ancient Egypt， in Rome， in China， each time it’s to claim are you belonging to a certain social group.
Host： So you do see similar messages， no matter where you go around the world？
Chloé： “I was there and I belong to that kind of group.”It’s part of identity claiming. “I came here as a scribe.”In Greece， “I came here as a minor.”
Host： Right. Just like that kid from China. He was just there in Luxor saying “I was here.”
Chloé： When I saw that thing， I was amazed because that’s the most basic graffiti from ancient Egypt to nowadays.
主持人：好，那是埃及的情况。我想问的是你在世界上别的什么地方看到过让你吃惊的涂鸦吗？
克洛伊：我研究的每一个地方都有。
主持人：真的？
克洛伊：对。
主持人：那有什么地方没有涂鸦的吗？
克洛伊：在没有发现涂鸦的地方，那是因为你没有找到他们可能涂鸦的地方。也许是他们当时的居民点早已被破坏。你知道吗，即使是玛雅社会里也很显然有涂鸦存在。
主持人：你认为世界上所有地方的涂鸦都有一定的主题性吗？
克洛伊：我认为最主要的共同特征是：涂鸦是一种社交行为。这是一个人归属于某个社群的行为标志。这一点，你知道，我们今天在一些非主流文化里看到的涂鸦也一样，有些可能带有色情意味，有的具有侵犯性。人们这样做就是为了表示自己是某一个社群的一部分，或者说是坏孩子中的一员。在古埃及、古罗马、古代中国，你的每一次涂鸦，都是要表明自己属于某一个社群。
主持人：这么说来，你在世界上的所有地方，看到的涂鸦都传达相似的信息吗？
克洛伊：“我来过这里，我是某个社群的人。”这是表明自己身份的一种做法。“我是一名抄写员，我来过这里。”在古希腊，“我是一名未成年人，我来过这里”。
主持人：正是，这就像中国的那个小孩子一样，他在埃及的神庙里涂鸦留言正是表明“到此一游”。
克洛伊：看到那条消息，我很惊讶，因为从古代埃及到当今社会，这正是涂鸦中最常见的内容。